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The Analytical Zen Podcast
Unveiling the Science Behind the Mystery: Exploring Forensics, Toxicology, Medicine and Health (Mind, Body and Spirit)
The Analytical Zen Podcast
Drugs and Deep Thoughts: A Philosophical Look Beyond the Lab Results
Imagine a young driver under the influence of multiple substances—what societal factors contribute to such dangerous behavior? In this episode, we explore the case of a young driver found with cocaine, diazepam, and fluoxetine in their system. We delve into trends among young drivers in Switzerland, draw parallels with other regions like Ireland, and examine broader societal issues, such as a lack of faith and purpose, that contribute to rising drug use.
Our discussion expands to the complex interplay between drugs, faith, and brain chemistry, highlighting how each can profoundly affect mood and behavior. This enlightening conversation emphasizes the importance of understanding our biological systems and the impact of community, purpose, and faith on overall well-being. We also offer a philosophical approach to toxicology, seeking to understand the underlying reasons behind drug use.
Join us as we explore this and more with our guest, Dr. Nicolas Donzé, a clinical chemist and forensic toxicologist at Hôpital Valais in Switzerland.
Join the conversation at The Analytical Zen Podcast! Reach out to us via email at theanalyticalzenpodcast@gmail.com.
The opinions expressed by the guests are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views of The Analytical Zen Podcast.
Welcome to the Analytical Zen Podcast, where we delve into the minds of leading scientists and professionals exploring forensics, toxicology, medicine and health in terms of mind, body and spirit. I'm your host, Geraldine M. Dowling. What should you expect in the Analytical Zen podcast? Well, we'll dive into cutting edge research and topics that inspire curiosity, the latest in forensic and clinical toxicology pursuits, and engaging conversations and perspectives from disciplines outside of these fields. We have an incredibly insightful guest today in clinical chemistry and forensic toxicology, whose work involves chemistry and crime scenes Think Sherlock Holmes meets Breaking Bad, minus the illegal activities. His abundant talent means he could probably turn water into wine if he didn't have such high ethical standards. He is currently working in the Hôpital Valais in Switzerland, With a rich background in both research and practical application. His work often intersects with the law enforcement and justice system. He is a mentor to many, speaker of multiple languages and lover of philosophy. Please welcome Dr Nicolas Donze.
Guest:Hello, nice introduction. Thank you very much.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Nicolas, it is a pleasure to have you here, and also having you as a supervisor of some of my research students is absolutely awesome. So let's delve into this episode. When you were in school, did you know anything about the field of clinical toxicology or the field of forensic toxicology? What interest did you have in school that you felt may have guided you towards this field?
Guest:In fact, at the beginning I studied medicine. I studied three years medicine, but sometimes exams are not my friend, so I have to change my orientation and I studied biology at the University of Lausanne and then I discovered that biology is very interesting because it's a way to go to the question I've always had to go to, the question I've always had, because when I was a kid I always wanted to understand why insects are running in the field. So we are like insects, humans and I wanted to believe where are we going to? So it's why I'm in this field. And then when I came to study at the CHUV in Lausanne and then I came in Valais, at the Hôpital de Sion and in this field of clinical chemistry, and they need somebody to work in forensic toxicology, and I say yes, why not?
Guest:I could do that. But I never do that before. So I have to study again, and so I'm always studying things and what I learn every day is I don't know. So when I have questions from medics, it's always the same they have new questions and I have no new answer. I have to find, to search. So it's an everyday study and I am a student, eternal student, in fact.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Building on what you just previously described, could you provide an overview of your work and your role in toxicology?
Guest:In fact we are in a hospital and I have to help the doctors to find a solution to the question they have. So it could be find the disease or find the drug, or find the drug abuse, or maybe to understand why a person comes at the hospital unconscious or with aggressivity, and so it's always a question. And in fact what is original is that I had to explain that it could be interesting to look after drugs, to say the symptom could be caused by a drug. But at the beginning they believe we will just work with clinical information. Sometimes it's enough, and after we speak a lot, I give them some lecture and they say, oh, it could be interesting to work with an investigation in drugs. And so little by little they become addict to these questions and to find answers with our lab. So it's a question of time. It takes me about 20 years to be sure they have understood that toxicology could be useful, could be not always useful.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Nicolas, your expertise in your work really shines through. So could you tell us what inspired you to write the article on the intersection of toxicology and philosophy? To write the article on the intersection of toxicology and philosophy?
Guest:You know, the more I work in toxicology, the more I speak with people lost in the slave which is consumption of drugs, the more I understand that toxicology doesn't resolve any problem.
Guest:Sometimes I have parents calling me and saying you know, I found my son consuming cannabis in the room last night and I want to come to the lab to analyze to find drugs in the urine or blood. Could you help us? And I always say why because if you see your son consuming drugs, I would say to you the result will be positive, so it's not necessary to make an analysis. Well, the answer I give you now, and the question is maybe speak with your son or your daughter to understand why he has taken these drugs, has taken these drugs, what is he looking for, what the problem he will maybe have, or maybe what does this drug give to your boy as information? Or maybe, and speak, and it could be just a useful tool to speak with your son or your daughter. And the more I see when I speak with people consuming drugs, the drug is not a problem, but life is a problem, so life is philosophy. So we have to work in philosophy, and the more I work, the more I make philosophy.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:You mention in your article the ancient Greek concept of pharmacos. Can you, Nicolas, explain this concept and how it relates to modern issues of drug and medicine use?
Guest:What we forgot with the French Revolution is that there is a lot of people who have thought before and they say the century of light. But which light light, I don't know. But uh, in fact, by the ancient greeks, pharmacos was three concepts in fact. The first is a scapegoat, so it's the animal we will kill, and for the greek, the pharmacos was as well a medication or a poison. So it's very interesting because it seems that always the humanity doesn't want to find solution in our hearts, but in something else. It's always another who will carry the problem or may give the solution. But in fact, if you have a problem, you have to solve the problem and you have to think about it. You have to be responsible, and the pharmacist is a way we have in our society.
Guest:I think we will always say, okay, it's not, there is a problem, sure, but it's not my fault that, it's a fault of somebody else. And when we are in a society with a lot of violence, of problem, of economical problem, our world in fact, we will find a scapegoat. So we can say, okay, if we kill this scapegoat, everything will be okay. It's the way we think, and for when we are sick, it's the same why I am sick, because I am sad, because I am aggressed in my work or because something else is aggressed me and the medics, the medication, the poison become a scapegoat Because I will say, if I will find a solution in my life, I will take a scapegoat and it could be an antidepressant drug and I will find the solution. It's not true. When you are sad or depressed, we give to people who are depressed antidepressant drugs. You are always sad, so it's as we believe that the scapegoat will solve all the problems, and it's why I use this concept, very old one.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:That's very interesting, Nicolas. Those thoughts got me thinking about how using scapegoats to avoid feeling pain is like putting on a band-aid on a deep wound it might cover the issue temporarily, but it doesn't heal the underlying problem. Facing our own emotions and responsibilities is absolutely crucial for personal growth, healthy relationships, both individually and collectively. Building on what you've just said previously, first, you know, harm is central to medical ethics.
Guest:How does modern medicine balance this practice with the increasing reliance on xenobiotics or chemicals to which an organism is exposed that are extrinsic to the normal metabolism of that organism? So what I see, but it's my thought and I just want to not impose this to others I just think our medicine, our modern medicine, which is completely a Cartesian medicine, we just think with a ratio, we think organize the body in a sort of association of cells and when one part of our body, one organ, so an association of cells, are sick, we will give medication. And in fact, hippocrates, the first doctors in our life, in our world, I would say, was thinking we are just not suffering from disease, but we are a sick guy. So it's different, because disease implies a biological approach and we are all the same symptoms, but there is never two people sick in the same way. Somebody has depression in a way, other in another way. So we are all unique, guys or women. So we have to think again as thought before.
Guest:It means when somebody is sick, we have to speak with this person. When somebody is sick, we have to speak with this person, not to say, okay, I will put you with this sort of disease. So in this case of disease, we have these symptoms. In these symptoms, we have this medication. So, okay, have a good day. But we don't help people like that. We have to think how are you, who are you, what's your problem, and then take times, but we have no money for times.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Nicolas, you raise some interesting points, because the philosophical approach the idea that people are never sick in the same way, yet modern medicine needs more time can be rooted in the concepts of individuality and the universality in health. I'd agree every person is unique, with distinct genetic, environmental and lifestyle factors that is going to influence their health. Philosophers, though, might argue that the experience of illness is subjective and deeply personal, making each case unique. This perspective emphasises the need for personalised medicine, where treatments are tailored to the individual rather than adopting a one-size-fits-all approach. On the other hand, modern medicine relies on universal principles and standardised treatments based on clinical research and evidence. This is necessary to develop effective treatments and protocols that then can be widely applied. The challenge, though, lies in balancing these universal principles with the need for personalised care. So for me, there is also the ethical dimension to consider. The allocation of time and resources in healthcare raises questions about justice and fairness. Philosophers might explore the implications of prioritising certain patients or treatments over others, and the ethical duty of healthcare providers to offer equitable care.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:The holistic approach to health integrates both the uniqueness of the individual's experiences and the universal principles of medical science. This can be a potential solution. This approach, then, will acknowledge the complexity of human health and aims to treat the whole person, considering their physical, emotional and their social well-being. Nicola, I myself have huge interest in the holistic approach. I mean, why only fix the engine when you can tune up the whole car Mind, body and spirit? Let's get it all running smoothly. Nicolas, could you give us some of your insights on the case of the 24-year-old driver mentioned in your article? What substances were found in his system, and can you tell our listeners what are the implications?
Guest:This was a true story this 20-year-old young man In fact we have a lot of such cases, so young guys driving in a neurotic way and the police has this mission to help people, to serve and protect, is just something great to do and in general the case in this case there were no accidents, just a control. And we find a lot of substance in this guy. So what is original is when the police control somebody, the the the person speaks. They say, ah, yes, of course I have taken this drug, this drug, this medication. Sometimes they say only one or two drugs and they say so maybe they will accept the idea I just taking this drug. But the problem is when they come to the hospital to take blood and urine and we make the analysis, sometimes we find more drugs and in this case we find cocaine, diazepam, fluoxetine, and that's the problem. So we find stimulants and anaxiolytic drugs and an antidepressant drug. So it's a problem because we have somebody who takes drugs. We are against one each other, so it's not a good idea. And in these cases the concentration of cocaine was above the low. You know, in Switzerland we have, we will say, like that per se value. It means like, so we have taken the value, which is 15 micrograms per liter.
Guest:When you have more cocaine in blood, you are not able to drive. The second thing in the Swiss law if you have more than one drug or medics in the body, we think it's not a good idea to drive. So we will take the license the driving license, and not allowed to drive till you could prove you don't consume this substance. The problem is drugs illegal drugs, cocaine, cannabis and other, and in this case cocaine. Okay, you don't have to consume this cocaine, it's okay, it's easy. But medication Can we drive with fluoxetine and diazepam? I don't know. In Switzerland the idea is so if you drive, you have no accident, you present no symptoms and you have in your body drugs like diazepam, leucetin or other antidepressant drugs. Have a good day, we don't do anything. If you have an accident, it could be very complicated for you.
Guest:So the problem is with the medication, but in this case drugs illegal drugs and medication. You don't drive anymore. Still you can prove you don't are under influence of these substances. So it will take time.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:So what we can observe these guys drive without any driving license. Nicolas, these are fascinating points it brings to mind. While we rightly condemn driving under the influence of illicit drugs, we often overlook the equally significant risks posed by prescribed medications. In fact, Nicolas, many prescription drugs can impair cognitive function, slow reaction times and affect coordination, creating, as I'm sure you agree, a dangerous scenario on the road similar to that caused by illegal substances. It's essential to broaden our understanding and awareness of impaired driving to include the effects of legally prescribed medications. By doing so, we can better address and mitigate all factors contributing to impaired driving, ensuring safer roads for everybody. There were statistics released from the Swiss Federal Office of Public Health indicating a significant increase in medication use over the past few decades. Do you think this trend will change?
Guest:I hope so. What I can see in 20 years I work in this field is we have always more cases. But we look after. So the more you are searching things, the more you find. It's logical, but anyway we find more and more young people taking drugs and now these cases with cocaine. But in the beginning of the year we have more and more cases driving under influence of ketamine, LSD and ecstasy. So it's the new trend in Switzerland and in my part of Switzerland we find these drugs.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Interesting, Nicolas, that you are seeing ketamine. Alongside the more recognized substances available on the illicit drug market, there is a number of other substances with hallucinogenic, anesthetic, dissociative or depressant properties that are being used in Europe. These include lysergic acid, diethylamide, or LSD, hallucinogenic mushrooms, ketamine, gamma hydroxybutyrate or GHB, and nitrous oxide. Some of these substances appear to have become deep-rooted in certain countries, cities or specific populations. However, their overall occurrence remains low compared to some of the more well-known drug classes. Current monitoring tactics often struggle to identify patterns and trends in the use of some of these less well-known substances, so it does then make it difficult for authorities to be able to look at the prevalence of use, the latest trends or the extent to which these drugs are associated with health or social problems.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:In Ireland, Nicolas, for example, the intentional mixing of cocaine and ketamine has been identified at music festivals, as well as ketamine-related medical incidents during 2022 and 2023. Ketamine may also be added to other drug mixtures, including ecstasy powders and tablets, potentially making unintentional consumption an issue. It has also been found in mixtures such as pink cocaine in Europe, and more likely to contain ketamine and other synthetic drugs such as amphetamine or ecstasy. Nicolas, building on what I've just said, how do you see the future evolve?
Guest:For the future.
Guest:I will say that maybe in a society it is what we say where we don't believe in nothing, you will take more and more drugs. The no-God society is depressive, aggressive and addict. And it is our society. We are lost, we have no belief, we don't believe in God. I'm not obliged to believe in God, but maybe to believe we are not alone could help, I think, and if you have a faith it could help. There is a french singer called claude nougat, just good, very good jazz man guy, and he's always saying a song, what's called the plume d'ange.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:He said the faith is more beautiful than god however, Nicola, if we approach faith and drugs comparison thoughtfully, it can really offer some interesting insights into the psychological and the social roles of faith. There are a few things that I thought about when you were speaking, and you know there's lots of similarities in terms of the neurochemical basis of belief. Both drugs and faith can alter brain chemistry, influencing mood perception behavior. Engaging in religious or spiritual activities can release neurotransmitters like dopamine and serotonin, similar to the effects of certain drugs. This perspective highlights the natural inclination of humans to seek experiences that provide both comfort, meaning and euphoria, whether through substances or through spiritual practices. Also, in terms of the psychological impact, drugs and faith both provide a sense of relief, a sense of escape or fulfillment. They can help individuals cope with stress, anxiety or crises. It suggests that providing support, community and a sense of purpose might be as crucial as addressing substance use in improving mental health crucial as addressing substance use in improving mental health.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:In terms of similarity, both have beneficial and detrimental effects. Faith can provide profound positive effects, such as community support, moral guidance and a sense of purpose. However, it can also lead to negative outcomes, such as extremism or exclusion. Drugs can provide relief or recreational enjoyment, but can also lead to addiction and harm. In my mind, nicola, this duality emphasises the need for balanced perspectives. Encouraging positive expressions of faith and addressing the harmful aspects I feel can be as important as harm reduction strategies for substance use. Let's dive a little bit deeper. What are your thoughts on medication abuse and the legalisation of illicit drugs?
Guest:The true problem is, first of all, what is the drug? For me, xenobiotics are to be defined in a different way. First of all, xenobiotics if you are healthy and you take xenobiotics, you take a drug. If you are sick, you take a medication, but it's always the same chemical. You know, if you take cannabis, for example, THC or cannabidiol and you are suffering from a cancer, pathology, neuropathy or things like that, cannabinoids could be good for your health. But if you're a young guy, 40 years old, and you came back at home tired and you smoke a joint, you take a drug. But it's the same chemical, it's just cannabinoids. So the first thing is that. The second thing is to authorize or not.
Guest:Things will not change humanity. We have to be educated to understand who we are, how we work. Now still about 20 or 30 years we make great progress about how works our reward system. So when you understand how works this reward system and you understand that all the jobs, all the kids in antibiotics will have an action on this reward system, so could make or give you this sensation of pleasure, and then this pleasure becomes slavery and then addiction. So when you know that, you say automatically, you just say this is never a good idea to legalize a product who makes you becoming addict.
Guest:But the problem is benzodiazepine could make you an addict guy or a girl. Antidepressant drugs have an effect of this reward system, so could have effect on addiction. So all the substance having an action on the brain could make you a slave. So the question is here what do you want? What society do you want? Do you want a society in which you can run for running? You don't know where you are going, but you run. So you have a lot of money, you are somebody very important, but for what? At the end there is death.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Equally, you can get a reward out of, you know, watching too much TV. You can get a reward out of many other things, like placing a bet. So that reward system can get hit in the human many different ways. And it's about picking your slavery, really, isn't it? It's about choosing, because the way the biological body is built, picking what it is that you can do that rewards you, but then to keep that in balance and that's where we go back again to that initial point that you made we need to have purpose. There needs to be some other. You know a way of getting reward to your family through connection, etc.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:The cannabis story across the world is an interesting one to discuss. In Ireland, cannabis is classified as a controlled substance under the Misuse of Drugs Act, making it illegal for recreational use. However, medicinal cannabis is legal under the Medical Cannabis Access Programme, which allows for a prescription of specific cannabis-based treatments by qualified medical professionals for patients with certain conditions, and there have been many discussions about the potential decriminalisation or legalisation of cannabis for recreational use, with some political parties in Ireland advocating for reform, but no concrete legislative changes have been made yet. Nicola, what is the current legal status of cannabis?
Guest:In Switzerland it's still forbidden, just to be sure, but there is a lot of fight to make it legal. Now there are studies in some cities in Switzerland. They will give for some people's legal cannabis and they will see. Because they asked this question is that dangerous to consume cannabis? This question is completely original and the idea is to make for two or three study to see if that the dangerous to consume cannabis. So the answer is for me it seems to be easy to give an answer it's not a good idea to smoke cannabis. It's easy. But the problem for me is that we as well discovered till about 30 years that we have an endocannabinoid system.
Guest:This endocannabinoid system is just fundamental for our life. It's organized. The fertility, the mood, appetite, all the cardiac action, fetus growth everything is under influence of this endocannabinoid system. All the dopamine system, noradrenergic system, serotonergic system, all the neurotransmitters are like drive by this endocannabinoid system. So this endocannabinoid system, so this endocannabinoid system, is fundamental To accept the idea that we can smoke without any danger a drug THC, modifying the action of this endocannabinoid system.
Guest:Is that a good idea? I don't think so. But we are in a special world where we want to be of this endocannabinoid system. Is that a good idea? I don't think so. But we are in a special world where we want to be ecological, more and more ecological, which is just necessary to protect our Gaia. The originality is we want to be ecological with our Earth by changing our car with electrical car, by taking less the plane, but we are not ecological with our personal earth, which is our body, because our body is like earth. We are a universe made of thousand and thousand cells speaking together. It's a wonderful relationship with peace, and we want to give to this Earth our body poison. Who are we?
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Yeah, just like Earth, our bodies are complex ecosystems and, as you said, nicolaou, we have trillions of cells working together, just like the diverse species of systems on our planet. Our microbiome, for example, is a very vibrant community of bacteria, viruses, fungi, and they all keep us healthy. Just as a balanced ecosystem supports life on Earth. The key thing here is we've got to maintain balance, and when we disrupt the balance with, say, poor diet or stress, our microbiome is impacted. So I guess it's like polluting our rivers or deforesting our jungles, for example, just in relation to public opinion in Switzerland regarding cannabis legalization is it a very divisive topic here in Ireland.
Guest:It's extremely divisive In Switzerland. It's like a religion. You have the for and the against. I'm in between, you know. I think we have to think.
Guest:To punish people consuming cannabis it's not a good idea. To punish people consuming cannabis is not a good idea. We have to help, we have to treat, we have to explain, but to say, do what you want, I'm not sure it's a good idea. We see, with the nicotine we can see till about 30 or 80 years. Nicotine is a killer. So they are always finding new way to smoke electronical, or now it could be with like moussey you can eat with nicotine. So it's just crazy. So we see that nicotine, which is allowed, is over consumed.
Guest:Alcohol is legalized and we have to educate people. I cannot speak against alcohol. We are in a country where we make good wine, so I cannot say wine is dangerous, but it is dangerous to consume too much alcohol. Always we have to be educated.
Guest:But cannabis the problem for cannabis is this endocannabinoid system. So it's not the same. If you have one glass of alcohol, you will not be drunk. If you take one puff of THC, you will have about nine micrograms per liter in blood of THC and in Switzerland we consider that you are not able to drive after 1.5 micrograms per liter. So it's something not good, but it's religious.
Guest:It's very difficult to speak about that because the smoker thinks it's not dangerous and the not smoker thinks it is dangerous. So it's not possible to speak. We have to make studies, it's right. But we know now endocannabinoid system must be more worked to be understood. And there is some hypocrisy, I would say, because by speaking from the THC the nice moments you can have with THC we are killing the therapeutic virtue of cannabinoids. Because it is difficult to speak now about cannabidiol when you see the literature there is always a lot of information about this cannabidiol antidepressant, anti-inflammatory and so on and so on and so on. But the problem is this cannabidiol could kill. It's a difficult discussion. I have no solution.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:We have to think about it quietly, Nikolas. They are all fascinating points that you're raising. How do you think advancements in gas
Guest:At the beginning, when we have questions in toxicology, we use just rapid screening immunological tests. So we could about 10, 15 different drugs detect and the doctors were happy with that. And sometimes doctors call me and say, ok, we see, the result is benzodiazepine positive or opiate positive. Ok, and they say but which benzodiazepine? Or is that heroin, morphine, codeine, what is it? And I say I don't know, it's just a pneumological test.
Guest:We have to work with GCMS. What's GCMS? And I say it's a way to be more precise and sensitive to detect the drug and I can say which benzodiazepine, or if it is heroin or morphine or codeine. And they say, oh, we can do that, so try. And the first time I made an analysis for doctors not in forensic, it is used since a long time but they discover we can have specific for drugs they don't imagine we could analyze. So that was very interesting. After use, you know, and I'm not a specialist in chromatography but I'm a user of chromatography and what I can observe is that we have the first GC-MS, we can have a lot of information. And you spoke with Professor Mora, who have made a lot of library with a lot of drugs and it's very reference for us and we can see we can find a lot of different substances, but it is in urine we need more, about two, four milliliters of urine, and it's interesting.
Guest:But if we have babies in just intoxicated it's difficult to have a lot of urine. So we need to find new solutions. And now it's not in my lab, but I work with the lab in Lausanne, the forensic lab in Lausanne university lab, and they have the LCHRMS and this is fantastic because in this case we use now blood sample which is called. It's a dried, dried blood spot and you put four drops of blood. It's about 40 microliters of blood, nothing. And they have developed a method to detect about 1400 drugs, which is fantastic. It means that if I have a baby intoxicated, I don't need a liter of urine. Let's say like that, I can just take four drops of blood.
Guest:A high-resolution system is very interesting for the future because we can imagine. And the dream is for the police, because the police, when they speak about this DBS system and this HRMS, they say oh, wow, could we do that easily? So it means I control somebody. I take just four drops of blood on the road. I don't have to go to the hospital, so I have no time to waste for waiting that somebody comes from the hospital to take blood. I just do that myself as a police officer and then I just have the result and I say not yet, not yet. You have not the result in five minutes, it's just in the movie show. But in reality you will wait because I have to send the sample. But maybe in a few years it could be possible to have one or two vehicles with this HRS smaller and you can have an analysis, but after you have already the interpretation. But it's very interesting to see the technical progress we can have now.
Guest:Now we have some cases. For example, sometimes it's not the fault but we have a mother pregnant, depressed, taking antidepressant drugs or anxiolytic drugs, and when the baby comes, just instead of crying to be happy to come in the world, he just sleeps. So it's more sad than that. And sometimes the pediatric service asks me to understand why he's sleeping and we find sometimes heroin or six monoacetylmorphine, the metabolites, or we find benzodiazepine or anti-epileptic drugs and like that. But they are able to understand that we can find why with toxicological investigation the baby is not trying.
Guest:Sometimes there is a disease, but it could be as well toxicological problem. So we have sometimes as well toxicological problem. So it's, we have sometimes and we have as well have had one case of a guy, a father, who smoked heroin in the same room as his son and the baby was intoxicated with heroin. He was six months old, so he was with the ambulance coming to the emergency room. He was in coma and he made his first overdose. Because in this case again, we do immunological tests and the answer was not sufficient. We have to make a GCMS to find which sort of opiates was detected. And it was cis-monoacetylmorphine, so it was error in consumption.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Nicolas, you pose the question where are you going In the context of toxicology and life? No-transcript.
Guest:When I speak with young people consuming drugs, it's always the question I have to ask Because, you know, sometimes institutions call me to make tests on young guys or women and when they came here they are not very happy because they have to be controlled and controlling is not good for them and it's not the solution. So they are not happy and they are hungry and they say we don't want to make a test. And I say if you don't want, I don't do. Never I do that, I don't obliged. But what do you want to to do with this discussion we could have. And so when we speak and always say what are your dream? What do you want to do in your life? Why do you consume drugs?
Guest:and after minutes they speak and the analysis is made with the discussion because they say, yes, I consume cocaine and lsd ketamine and so on, so, so they explain me all the solutions. So I had it's not necessary to make a blood analyze or urine analyze. I have the answer. And so it's co valdis. Well, it's a question of the Jesus Christ to Peter in Rome, when he was going away, because he was afraid, and Jesus said go back to this. So what do we do now? The solution is not to go out, it's to fight. And this is the question I have to ask these young guys and women, and sometimes they are surprised because, oh yes, this is a good question.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Of course, and so this is why the drugs are just symptoms.
Guest:The question is why do you are suffering and when you don't know where you are going? To what you dream, what your dreams? If you have no dreams, it's normally consumed.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:They're really crucial insights because you know, if you have no dreams, it can impact you in several ways. For me, you know, a lack of dreams can lead to feelings of emptiness, or for others it may be a lack of purpose, or others may feel, maybe, a depression. I think aspirations gives us goals to work towards which can provide motivation and a sense of accomplishment, towards which can provide motivation and a sense of accomplishment. Nicola, what role do you think a psycho-spiritual approach could play, in your opinion, in addressing substance abuse and fostering a healthier society?
Guest:You know, when you read the books old books you can have sometimes very interesting answers. I read regularly books from Hildegard von Wingen and when she wants to explain what is humanity and what is a human being, she always says we are made of three dimensions. We are a body. He will die, so we are made of three dimensions. We are a body. He will die, so we are very fragile. We have a computer who can drive this body, which is the soul. And she always says that the soul has a dress code and the dress code of the soul is our body. So we are the body of our soul.
Guest:And not to be lost in this world we need a GPS and it's called the spirit. And the spirit will give you the direction, will help us to answer the Qobadis question, and the light we can see with the spirit is for Hildegard von Bingen, it's God a thousand years ago and I will believe still that. And to be human and happy and healthy is an harmonious communication between these three dimensions. So it means in our world, when we are sick, means we have lost the light, so the body is suffering when we don't see the light. And we can imagine that. Try to walk in the dark. You will be injured, it's sure.
Guest:So when I speak with young people, I cannot speak from God today. It's not accepted. I believe but I cannot speak. But when they ask the question, I give the answer, because it's very important not to force people to believe, just to say, oh, I believe you do what you want. And this is why when you imagine you are not alone, you can find more strength to be able to fight.
Guest:If you are alone, it's horrible. This is the worst situation. If you are alone, you say, okay, nobody loves me, why to live? If you know somebody or there is somebody else, you can help. If you know somebody or there is somebody else, you can help. And this is why I think we need to speak for help people from the body to know how we work, to know how our brain works, to know we have emotional part in the brain. The limbic system is like a boy in a big shop of toys and you want everything. You are not, you're not thing. You say I want, I want, I want and to be human is the discussion between this part and if you know that, you understand why you have fear, why you are hungry, why you are happy or you want to speak with people. So when you know how your body is, it's help, but it's not enough. You have this soul and this spirit and if you kill these two dimensions, you cannot live. We're not only body, because how to understand the death?
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Nicolas, these are interesting thoughts and they make me think about how our fears and how our desires are sometimes leaning us away from our true purpose. I agree with that to some extent, but also that spiritual growth often requires periods of solitude and reflection and that we need faith, and that we need faith Whether that's faith in your relationship, god of your understanding, know God if you're an atheist, faith in your family, your professional work, in having a home, whatever that is that helps you reduce fears, whether related to being alone or desiring too much. All of these fears will absolutely significantly impact our soul and spirit, and I believe these are valid points raised. Ultimately, I believe, nicola, it's about pausing, going down the trail of using scapegoats Outside of your professional life. What do you enjoy doing in your free time?
Guest:Listening to good music in general is Italian opera. I love Italian opera and I like to run in the forest, in the field, in my mountains, and I have always the pleasure to read, to learn more things, so I can share after the thing I learn and I just like to help and I'm working each year. It is called in French Hospitalier de Lourdes. Hospitalier de Lourdes it's like nurse, nurse assistant, not very nurse. So we go to Lourdes each year with people, old people or sick people, and we go to help these people who want to go to this place where Mario appeared about more than 150 years ago. And I just like to help people to go in the hospital, see people sick, but not as a biologist or toxicologist, but just as a nurse assistant to pass time with my wife and my kids when they are home now, because they are older than to be stay home, so sharing time nicola, as we near the end of our chat, is there any one final thought or insight that you'd like to share with our audience?
Guest:I learned something from Bernadette Soubirous, which is this holy girl in Lourdes, and always she said that when we asked, Bernadette, you don't want to make believe that the Virgin Mary is coming here, and she always said the lady said to me she is there, but she doesn't say to me to make you believe it. And in my work, when I speak about drugs, I never want to make the people believe what I say. I always say never believe me. I never believe scientists. We are not. It's not a religion. Science, it's just a tool to understand and I just want to share.
Dr Geraldine M. Dowling SFHEA:Thank you so much, Nicolas, for some amazing clinical and forensic toxicology insights and for sharing your experience with us today. It's been an enlightening chat. I hope this episode would give food for thought. Also, I hope it further enhances the understanding of the role toxicology plays in society. Thank you very much and, to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Analytical Zen Podcast. Be sure to join us next time. Stay curious.